The way English clubs scout, recruit and develop young players is set to change, after Premier League chairman agreed on the terms for a Elite Performance Plan.
Ivan Gazidis was present at the meeting at the end of the season, in which chairmen discussed ways to revamp the current rulings on youngsters. The key changes come around the signing and development of players, with the ’90 minute rule’ set to be scrapped and coaching times increased.
The current setup means clubs can only coach players aged between 10 and 18 for a maximum of 2000 hours, but the new proposals allow up to 10,000 hours. Elsewhere, the rule on players only being signed to academies if they live within 90 minutes of the training centre will be removed, but there will be further discussions on greater compensation on the transfer of youngsters, especially with regards to lower league clubs.
The changes have been mooted for a number of years, with Arsène Wenger and Sir Alex Ferguson two of the key pioneers of the EPP.
The rulings will come into action from the start of the 2012-2013 season, and the hope is that they will match up with those of Spanish clubs, allowing English sides the option to add more continental coaching methods to their development plans.
Well said Jamie. i had no idea these proposals were even on the table till now so thanks for the info and this seems like great news for our academy
What continental coaching methods are we talking about here?
i know nothing abt that so perhaps if someone knows they could enlighten me a bit? would be nice
Here’s a great article on the bbc from a couple of months ago about Barca’s La Masia development center. This is the archetypal “continental coaching” center and should answer your question:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/europe/9393966.stm
You knew it was belated but nevertheless progress of EPP can only be fair and beneficial to the clubs as well as England nation players selection in the future. I hope compensation on the transfer of youngsters be cap at reasonable prices especially English talents are ridiculous so hype up in their transfer fees.
This sounds like great news. now maybe arsenal can set up their own academy like barcas la masia. plus we have the benefit to give talented youngsters contracts
Laddie….where have you been since 1997? The Arsenal Academy is a perfect mirror image of La Masia and has produced some real talent like Ashley Cole, Jack Wilshere,Benik Afobe, Kyle Bartley etc. While the talent Wenger has amassed from his worldwide scouting network has added incalculable foreign talent to an already promising British contingent.
coz barcas kid practically live at the club. we can coach them faster at 10000hrs than the measly 2000
Any truth to the rumour that Steve Rowley might be off to Chelski? I’d hate to see him leave.
I think he has turned them down.
It is great that they are changing it from 2000 to 10000 hours but we still need to improve the quality of our coaches because we are still behind the likes of Holland, Spain, Portugal and Germany etc etc in that regard
Can anybody tell me de meaning of dis thing?
Love arsnal
@ kentpaul … The article tells you English clubs still needs to improve on their coaching methods and my concern is Wenger going to immediate actions to improve the coaching staffs and methods for many better years ahead and it starts from the youth.
“…they will match up with those of Spanish clubs, allowing English sides the option to add more continental coaching methods to their development plans.”
@ Gunner SA … Agreed and we need to build players hostel and they live and breadth football and team spirits from young. Excited.
Good news 4 talents from africa.how does this affect them?
yeah mate very exciting.. now we can develop our youngsters better. hopefully the likes of bunjaku, ebecilio, gnabry, toral, bellerin etc will develop very well under this
“Elsewhere, the rule on players only being signed to academies if they live within 90 minutes of the training centre will be removed”
That’s not good for Arsenal. Under current rules, we have access to 90% of the kids in the country anyway, because of where our training ground is. Shame.
And just a note to everyone who’s going to talk about English coaching – changes won’t make any difference. The problem isn’t the coaches, it’s the material going in. We simply don’t have as many players as other countries, so obviously we won’t have as many talented youngsters as them. Simples.
are you kidding???? England have probably millions of kids dreaming of football. Of course its the coaching otherwise they would never reach the highest level. Talent is one thing but the coaching will make you a pro.
Funny how countries with much smaller populations like the Czech Republic, Netherlands, etc. seem to be able to create a much higher percentage of quality players
I’m happy to hear this but to be honest im sure this was done with England in mind… they understand quite clearly now seeing our recent feats in the world cup and other secondary tourneys that they dont coach up star players. The clubs do. Its high time they adopted this in my opinion.
Sorry off topic but Lansbury is effin awesome. Please don’t loan him out Wenger.
one the main reason england failing at youth level is some coach like Stuart Pearce getting the under 21 because they are hype as good young coach even so so far he show how he is abysmal at best while some experience coach who could teach a few thing to young player like curbishley have no job.even some of the best academy coach in the country are not even considerate to coach national youth-team.
This the best post of the day. The EPP is just a step, England football is notorious for giving jobs based on being an ex-pro, hype or just good old “give a mate a job” old-boys mentality.
The best coaches should get the opportunity to apply (and get!) the best coaching positions.
As a Sports Scientist at academy level, the EPP is a good move, and goes hand-in-hand with the new academy grading criteria. Chances are, only “Grade 1” Academies will get the 10,000 hours coaching opportunity.
Plus with the Governments new rules on schools becoming academies, expect many school and colleges to combine with clubs so they can achieve a higher grading.
hearing stuart pearce talk about football makes me want to puke. and the saddest thing is this guy represents the qualities which apparently english footy should be proud of. i’m not please u21’s are out but from the point of view of pearce i’m glad he failed because he didn’t deserve success… the dude is a mess.
The English FA and many EPL clubs (and I guess all of Britain) need to learn from France,Spain and the Scandanavian countries if they ever want to produce quality International level players. The U21’s are out of the tournament, the England team was a shambles at the last WC and it is very problematic for the Euros. England need an International quality Academy like La Masia or Fontainbleu in France and should bring in the best coaches in the world,British or not, to help produce thr qulaity they need to win a WC or the Euros. It is clear that generally non-English are superior to your average English coach/manager since SAF, Wenger, Mancini, Dalgleish,and Ancelotti have outdone most other managers over the last 4-5 years.
this implimentation will be a good one becuase it will help the young players to catch up with their dreams ,for we arsenal fans it will be good.
Hey guys is it true that we are chasing some kid Alexander Milošević?
AndyE>
“Funny how countries with much smaller populations like the Czech Republic, Netherlands, etc. seem to be able to create a much higher percentage of quality players”
Long-term, they don’t. Ten years ago, you’d have been talking about France and, I dunno, Croatia. There are lots of teams out there like the Czechs, and one of them will have a lucky patch with lots of talent at any given time.
If it’s just about coaching, then why aren’t all the Arsenal youngsters as good as Wilshere?
its a combination of both not one single thing. Are you really that dumb?
Why do you think small countries never will produce big big football players? Their talent give them the opportunity to be coach by top quality coaches such as our here in arsenal. They will never reach the highest level only by talents. Why do you think some countries keep producing top players from around the world constantly. Wilshere is special but here in Arsenal we have produced quite a few PL players already. Lansbury is another example of that.
Are you seriously trying to suggest that the potential footballing population in England is equivalent to the Czech Republic or the Netherlands?
You are having a laugh. The male population of England is 25 million, and football is by far the most popular sport. That’s double the combined male population of both Netherlands and the Czech Republic.
And even if those countries only produce in cylces, they still constantly produce top-class players who would walk into the England team. The current Croatian team and Czech teams might not be that great, but Luka Modric and Peter Cech would walk into the England team HANDS DOWN.
So your argument that it’s a population issue complete rubbish
You also conveniently ignored the Dutch, who have been outperforming for the last 40 years.
A coach can’t make a average player a superstar, but he can give him the skills to become better.
Without coaching, your talent never even gets the chance to succeed, because you don’t have the fundamentals.
This is a basic principle in any form of training. Football, academics, music. Talent without the right guidance just goes to waste
Andy E, you cannot just look at our total population figure and make assumptions. For a start how many of that population figure are female? how many are immigrants, on temporary visas? I know for a fact that will rule out 65% for a start. Then you need to factor in that we have more pensioners per head than any other country in Europe. We also have more disabled people per head than any other country in Europe. By my reckoning that will take approximately 75% off the figure straight away.
We have some great youth coming up the ranks from last year u15s ,Vickers,Ormande,Lipman,Akpom ,Jebb these lads will be full time at coleney London from the summer 12mts ahead of schedule .Which will only enhance their development
i’m sick of hearing ‘experts’ chat rubbish about why can’t england play the same as spain… and the mystery of how we don’t produce technically gifted players. erm maybe because we don’t coach them to! for years they had this pointless debate… what if in the first place they actually employed someone with a brain to sort out things from grass roots level upwards. there is no quick fix. and these same ‘pundits’ slate arsenal for playing pretty football and slate england for playing hoofball… fucking clueless idiots.
I feel for English fans because you are having the same issues as we have here in America. The youth system is ran by morons that only have jobs because of who they know, not what they know. We both have the same mentality to. Creativity is frowned upon and “hustle” is encouraged. I can’t stand the word “hustle”. To me it always signals a lack of talent when some one says that. Hustle and Hard work should be a given in football, not something you base your whole youth development on.
Other then that, there are 2 things that I believe should be done in any youth development. Futsal for kids at a young age like they do in Brazil. The other is the B team plays professional like a lot of the teams do in spain. This way the best young talents don’t have that gap in their careers between a “youth player” and a top professional. I know people are against that though. In America we have an issue in the same place but our problem is the players go off to college between 18 – 22 years old. We just beat Czech Republic 3 – 0 in the u17 world cup but none of those players will turn into good professionals because of the system.
Actually, the US are making the necessary changes, only just a few months back, they released the new US Soccer Curriculum (The entire 6Gb PDF is free on the ussoccer for those interested), emphasizing technical ability, attacking play (all academies and colleges in the US have been told to use the 4-3-3 as the standard system for later players) and progressive development.
How does that help at all? This is exactly the kind of stuff I am talking about. It is a massive joke. You don’t fix your youth development with a stupid pamphlet and no body that did not know how to train creative players reads one and now is the right coach for the job. See this is what I am talking about. They come up with small pointless steps and claim it is a step forward.
Look here are some drastic things that need to be done to truly improve football here.
The major problem revolves around the college system because it stops all this from happening though.
1) The best young talents need to play for actual professional clubs not for pay and you play youth clubs that have nothing to do with professional football. This means all MLS clubs need to have youth academies that start at age 9 and there should be no limit on how many kids you can bring up to the first team.
2) Then these players need to be aloud to play for the first teams at a young age. The top 16 year olds need to be practice with the professional first team and making appearances in things like the US Open cup.
3) Just to touch on this more, we can’t have a pay and you play set up. The best clubs can run between 2 and 5 thousand dollars. That pretty much means most poor kids are not going to have the chances to play and especially a lot of immigrants who deserve the chance to play. This point was best shone when the kid Funes Mori won the soccer stars competition in Dallas and then went on to start for River Plate and play for the Argentina u20 team. There are plenty of these talents all over America that never get the chances.
4) Real futsal for the youth. Not this stupid 3 v 3 where we pride our selves on just shooting a lot instead of working on our skills.
5) No more mom and pop coaching. Simply put, it ruins kids. I have seen so many parents coaching 16 year old travel teams and it makes me sick.
6) Last thing for now but there is so much more. Politics need to change in football. Like I said, to many coaches have jobs that they shouldn’t and to many kids play for things like ODP because of their parents when talented kids get left behind.
The problem is a lot of these things can not happen because of the college system. Ultimately most kids will not make it but you would ruin his college eligibility should they play professionally at 16 so the youth academy setup can not really be implemented.
By the way, there is so few coaches that I can really only name like 2 off the top of my head that I approve of in US football and that is Jason Kreis from Real Salt Lake and Caleb Porter from Akron.
Andy E>
I can’t fathom why you can’t understand this. It’s not rocket science. If you have more people playing football, it’s more likely that more of them will be naturally talented. If you have fewer, it’s less likely. That doesn’t mean it’s impossible.
England have fewer naturally talented players than Germany because there is half (or a bit less) the playing population. It really is that simple. Long-term, Spain and France don’t produce more good players. Holland have a worse record than England at major tournaments.
Yes, the Czech senior team is currently quite good, because they have a couple of very good players. So what? Out of all the Czech-Republic-sized countries out there, one will always have some decent players.
This whole debate stems from the idea that England underperform, and there’s no basis for that. England have achieved almost exactly what you’d expect, long-term.
It’s also, of course, utterly ludicrous to look at the U-21s now, and think that the youth system which coached them as youngsters ten years ago is the same as what exists now. Fortunately the clubs are responsible for producing young talent, not the FA, and they have a very strong financial incentive to get it right. Any changes that were there to be made were made years ago – they just haven’t fed through yet. They won’t make a dramatic difference, though.
Dave…. I am sorry but you can simply say that the number of players playing the game is a direct link to the quality of professional players they will produce. I can tell you coming from a country where we have tons of youth players yet we produce very little top talent, the System is the most important thing. Sure if your country has the amount of footballers as San Marino then it will be tough and sure if you have as many players as they do in Brazil then you will have a better chance to find the one special talent but producing a large number of talents comes down to the system. Best example is African players that play in Africa verses African born or players of African heritage playing through the French system. It is very apparent that the youth system has a big impact and that is the most clear example of that.
Edit… meant to say CAN’T not can.
“I am sorry but you CAN’T simply say that the number of players playing the game is a direct link to the quality of professional players they will produce.”
You still haven’t got it. Lets take another examples.. some small countries like Sweden has got a lot of good international athletes in many different sport. How is that possible? The answer is good facilities and coaching. Sweden is a good example of a small country where talent is not enough. You need good coaches and good facilities to success.
I found it hard to understand why China never produce any top class talents when for sure they must have a few millions who play football. Surely at least 100 of those millions should be able to compete with the rest of the world but that is not the case.
Football is not all about techniques, its a lot about tactics too and that is what the coaches are for. I have seen many good players technically but they have no tactical awareness and no positional sense, a good coach can help you with that and make you a better player. You don’t seems to understand.
The fact that you are an Arsenal fan and still don’t get this when you see our first team who is coached by one of the most recognise manager who is known for bringing the best out of the young players we have makes me think of how stubborn you are when it comes down to your of theory. It makes no sense at all in the highest level when 10 countries have more than 5 millions of players each. Sure when you talk about a few hundreds of thousand but we are talking millions of players. You seriously believe Germany with 10 millions of players is better than England with 4 millions of players??? The amount is stupid and there are probably 10000 for every millions with equal potential. But as again talent is not everything, many things comes in the way of turning pro.
If you have proper TRAINING, the number size of your population matter less.
England (total population of 51 million) has a larger population than Argentina (40mill), Netherlands (16mill), and Portugal (10mill).
So why aren’t England producing as many good players as those countries? Those countries CONSISTENTLY (do you understand the meaning of this word) produce far better players than England has for the last 40 years.
COACHING AND TRAINING MATTER MUCH MORE THAN POPULATION. It’s bleeding obvious.
“I am sorry but you CAN’T simply say that the number of players playing the game is a direct link to the quality of professional players they will produce.”
Nope, it’s slightly more complicated because GDP is correlated as well. It indisputably is a simple two-factor relationship, in statistical terms. It’s not open for debate: it’s a simple fact. (There are scientific papers about it which make the relationship absolutely clear.) That many football fans and pundits don’t know or accept this fact doesn’t help the debate.
Hell, you can argue all you want, but the simple fact is that England’s record stands up well in comparison to those of other, similarly-sized countries. Italy are a slight anomaly, but then Spain have a far worse record, historically. France have a slightly better record, and more players. Germany, much better, but literally twice as many players.
Jom>
Put it this way: think of every kid playing football as a lottery ticket. The countries with more lottery tickets will be more likely to win more money, right? Sometimes, sure, the jackpot will go to someone with just one ticket, but on average, the more tickets you have, the more you’ll win.
That is a stupid way to think about it since i just told you why you can’t think about it that way. but again you only think you are right so no more reply ever for you. I bet you don’t care but go ahead thinking you’re right instead of thinking logic. if you think in that way then China will win.
If you see every kid playing now as a lottery ticket then you are wrong.
You are proven wrong by the existence of countries that consistently produce better players with smaller populations.
The issue isn’t about England underperforming, it’s about England not producing players who are good enough. Pure and simple. The so called “Golden Generation” was actually quit shit, and their inadequacy was covered up at club level by other players who took most of the tactical and technical responsibility
Producing good players is not a question of luck. It is not a question of population. It is a question of coaching
Otherwise, please explain the Netherlands (which you once again conveniently ignore) who CONSISTENTLY produce better players than England year after year for the last 40 years
Provide a link to any such papers.
The papers might exist, but you could be misinterpreting or overextending their conclusions.
Dude, really? You ignore the clear head to head comparison that can be made for this. You have tons and tons of African youth soccer players in Africa. Then you have a FAR less number of African youths that come at through the French system. Which do you think produces the greater talents? To just simply put it down to the number of players you have equals the number of players you develop to a top level is proven to be wrong and you just have to open your eyes to see that. You don’t need some study (which often has a point they want to prove) to see that. As for Spain having a far worse record historically, then you could easily point out that the spanish system probably has changed or improved over time. We might as well do away with the Arsenal academy and just simply find the best 1000 youth players in england and just let them be. No need for a system, they will just magically grow into great players.
By the way, watching another talented player at the u17 world cup for Ivory Coast so I go and check his age on the fifa website and he is supposedly 14!!! it is hard to take this competition seriously sometimes. Just wish I could have full faith in this competition.
I saw your comment about congo players being better than Hollands… I checked the site and I have never seen a younger squad in that competition before. Many from Congo are 15 only. only a few are 17…..
That is it. If they are 15 then Arsenal needs to snap them up fast along with this 14 year old from the Ivory Coast. He is the number 8 and played in central midfield.
There have been some good performances but some of the biggest names have not started off well. Adryan and Piazon from Brazil, Dempay from Holland and Zahore from Denmark. Zahore literally just stood up top and did absolutely nothing.
“You have tons and tons of African youth soccer players in Africa. Then you have a FAR less number of African youths that come at through the French system. Which do you think produces the greater talents?”
It’s hard to prove, but I’d say the African nations, put together, produce many, many more top level footballers than the French. Which is kind of proving my point.
(http://www.statbunker.com/football/btb/index.php?PL=competition&CompID=279&statType=nation says 38 Frenchmen in the EPL last season, compared to over 50 Africans – but note that only 4 Germans, so obviously it’s also affected by whether there is a strong home league to play in.)
“some study (which often has a point they want to prove)”
You’re right to be skeptical in general, but not in this case – it’s a mathematical fact based on reliable data, so hard to influence. On top of that, some nations have seen a change in GDP/playing population which is reflected in their results. There’s very strong evidence in favour of this being absolutely correct.
“We might as well do away with the Arsenal academy and just simply find the best 1000 youth players in england and just let them be. No need for a system, they will just magically grow into great players.”
You have the argument upside-down. Whatever system we have in place won’t make a lot of difference in practice. You can stop players coming through with a really bad system, but having a really good one won’t turn mediocre talents into Jack Wilshere.
If I can turn your Arsenal argument around, why do we sign kids from all over the world, instead of just picking the best in England (within the allowed radius, etc.)? Again, because whilst you might be able to ruin a Fabregas or Wilshere with bad coaching, you can’t create them with good coaching without youngsters possessing the innate talent required.
As I said, to say that there is a problem, you have to first show that England underperform long-term. It’s hard to make a case for that. Bearing in mind that Brazil win half of all World Cups, that doesn’t leave a lot over for the rest to divide up between them. As such, the stats are likely to be a little bit uneven (because really, long-term would mean over at least a century, World Cups come along so rarely), but England haven’t done terribly by any stretch of the imagination.
Mate, I’m not aware of any hard evidence you’ve provided to back up your assertions that the size of the population is a greater determinant than the quality of the training
Honestly it is hard to argue with you because your point is silly. For one, what does the number of Africans in the English league verses number of french players have to do with anything? For 2, if that is your point then ok…there are nearly as many players from 1 nation as compared to a whole continent.
My point was pretty simple and if you can’t keep up with it then I can’t argue anymore. Here we go. Look at the difference in development when you have an African player go through the African system verses when an African player comes up through the french system. Very easy thing to judge mate. Stay focused on the point and just think about it.
Also like a guy put it, by your perspective, China would have the best players in the world. By the way, I have said, I am not arguing that number of footballers available is not important and natural talent is not important but with no systems, none of that will matter.
Oh, it’s worth noting that there is one systematic change we could make which would make a big difference: at the moment athletes in most sports (from almost all countries) are almost exclusively born at the start of the school year, and vanishingly rarely at the end of it. The kids at the start of the year are older and bigger, so they look better than the kids born at the end of the year.
If we could make a real effort to recognise the talents born at the ‘wrong’ time, we could effectively increase the pool of potential players. Of course, if the rest of the world did the same, we’d be no better off.
I have been one of the staunchest supporters of keeping cesc but at this point i have no respect for a player that plays for one team but wants another. I am of the opinion that we should sell cesc. And blood the team with that money. I welcome ALL the negative comments. Hell give Nasri the contract he wants. This is too much of a distraction for our team… WAY TOO MUCH. Gosh 12 years ago players lived and died for arsenal…. how many MAN U players do you see asking to go play for another club? no seriously how many? in a short space of time… flamini, cesc, henry, hleb, cashley e.t.c… this is a pandemic. as much as i hate to bring up Man Utd…. there is something seriously wrong with the picture of our star players eyeing other clubs. Stop and think. How many team captains in the Premier League wants to play for another team???? hmm? I’m waiting? Dats right NONE!!!! Joey Barton is being forced out so that does not count. Listen. A general can not lead an army while hoping to be a sergeant in another. LET HIM GO. If we are to implode the plan… we do so and start over with people commited to the cause.
I have been one of the staunchest supporters of keeping cesc but at this point i have no respect for a player that plays for one team but wants another. I am of the opinion that we should sell cesc. And blood the team with that money. I welcome ALL the negative comments. Hell give Nasri the contract he wants. This is too much of a distraction for our team… WAY TOO MUCH. Gosh 12 years ago players lived and died for arsenal…. how many MAN U players do you see asking to go play for another club? no seriously how many? in a short space of time… flamini, cesc, henry, hleb, cashley e.t.c… this is a pandemic. as much as i hate to bring up Man Utd…. there is something seriously wrong with the picture of our star players eyeing other clubs. Stop and think. How many team captains in the Premier League wants to play for another team???? hmm? I’m waiting? Dats right NONE!!!! Joey Barton is being forced out so that does not count. Listen. A general can not lead an army while hoping to be a sergeant in another. LET HIM GO. If we are to implode the plan… we do so and start over with people commited to the cause.
off topic
Hey Jamie thanks for the post. I didn’t know these changes were possibly in play. I heard about them but didn’t know they were more than just a suggestion.
@ rashonwenger ….. If like you suggested sell Fabregas which player in our current set-up or external buy in players can replace him? Answer: I can’t think of one but if there was we can’t afford the high transfer fee.
Why agitated by the negative reports from everywhere? Ignore and be patience and allow Arsene to work through the plans installed and started some 1o years ago. Arsene is a visionary and execution and really he needs capable to help fulfill it after he left us end of his contract.
Frankly Fabregas never force through the transfer issue and he respected Arsene and the supporters.
If Fabregas asks for a transfer he will forego his loyalty bonus, rumoured to be an extra £2m per season on top of his salary.
If we did get a good amount for Fabregas then the money would not go towards a direct replacement. That would be Ramsey. My choice if I could select 1 big money buy would be Hulk. After Messi and Ronaldo, this is the next best thing as a wide forward. He is one of these guys that has the technique, consistency and that pure class to get 25 goals from that position especially on a great attacking team.
This conversation is completely off topic i shouldn’t have brought it up. @ Arsenal. We played 13 games in the premiership with Fabregas on the sidelines… and had a very good winning record. Man Utd sold ronaldo after he flirted with Real… he is top 2 in the world. They survived. You cant lead if your heart is not in it. You cant be captain and say well im not planning to leave but im not gonna close the door to it. Why should wenger have a sit down and talk with him every year… give me a break about respecting the fans… if he wants to show respect. Honor the badge… dont talk about keeping the door open. Then Rossell comes out with this crap… about cesc doing everything to come to barca… there is no smoke without fire. Finally do you really in your heart think he would renew his contract with us? So what? we wind down the clock, hold on to someone who frankly his effort in games has dropped considerably (might be due to injuries), is injury prone and wants to play for another club hoping he stays then end up selling him for peanuts… Even if we win the league next year do you honestly believe he would stay? If you do… you have a lot more faith in men than i do. One last thing about replacing him… yes he’s been good but we haven’t won anything have we? frankly he has had one magical season and some decent seasons… We haven’t replaced Henry, Bergkamp or Viera but surely we moved on from them… We can do the same. Arsenal Always!
Rashon>
Here’s a thought that doesn’t seem to have occurred to you: maybe Fab wants to play for two clubs at the same time. Obviously, it’s impossible for him to actually play for both, but it’s not impossible that he loves both Arsenal and Barca, and that if he plays for Barca he’ll miss Arsenal just as much as he misses Barca when he plays for Arsenal.
By your argument he ought to retire, because he’ll never be entirely happy at either club.
Rashonwenger….
I don’t get when people say “sell Fabregas”. It is insane to me. It would be one thing if Barcelona offered any where near his market price but the are only offering like 30 million pounds. Who in there right mind would sell him for that much? I bet he has a great season this next year and his price will sky rocket. Wilshere will be much better in his 2nd year along with the ever improving Song. Really the key to how every thing will go next year is whether Nasri signs or not. Still don’t get the sell Fabregas for pennies call.
Frankly even if Fabregas and Nasri was sold and assuming Wenger cannot get suitable replacement for both players and worst still next season our EPL remains at 4th positions. I want Arsenal team to be self substaining and every business to coaching improved further then I don’t see any valid reasons to see AFC raising to the status of Barcelona. Wenger is a visionary and we can see success in the constant term, once we depart from the debts which coincidentally in the 2rd phrase and ending real soon and moving into the 3rd phrase which is the most exciting part and success for follow. Of course I love to see Arsenal win trophies, but the structure must be set in place. You still see Arsene buying players with a set transfer fee criterion but can we blame him if we knew he is helping the club in the long run so patient is the keyword.
Three things in this Cesc/ Nasri/ Clichy SAGA…
1) Wenger will sell Fabregas off in his last 1-2 years contract, and yes we can expect his transfer value in the region of 20 million pounds,
2) Nasri can go with a good transfer fee so long Wenger had someone to replace him
3) Clichy going off scare me unless we buy a ready and better replacement.
I agreed completely with the first paragraph. The second part was completely wrong.
Fabregas will be the clear best center mid in the world by the time we sell him (if we do) so suggesting he will only bring in 20 million doesn’t make sense. I just feel we are going to have to cough up the extra to keep Nasri. Would it make that much sense to sell him for 10 million when on a full contract next year he would be worth about 30. Really stupid that we let players contracts run down to the last season. Clichy is the one I least worry about. His failure to be able to hold a defensive line cost us several big games.
I don’t get the argument that we might be stronger without Fabregas – it’s plainly nonsense, because there is no chance whatsoever of replacing him. There isn’t another midfielder of the same class anywhere in the world who’d consider moving. He is utterly irreplaceable.
NO player is irreplaceable, lets not get carried away, we only have to replace him for half a season anyway as he is usually injured the other half.
Also there is the benefit of losing your highest paid player and a captain that clearly does not want to be here. Blimey, If there is a tiddly winks comnpetition in Barcelona he is off to support one of his pals in it.
Wes Schneider? he is in the same class.
Joey Barton :)
Pele and Messi are pretty close tho lol. It would be hard to replace Messi’s 50 goals a year.
Sneijder is not in Fabregas’s class. Fabregas already has over 90 assists for Arsenal and he is not even in his prime. People look down upon Fabregas’s year last season but both players played 25 games in their leagues. Sneijder had 5 goals and 4 assists while Cesc had 3 goals and 11 assists. 2 seasons ago when Sneijder had his best season ever, he had 8 goals and 12 assists in all competitions while Fabregas had 19 goals and 19 assists in all competitions. Guess it all comes down to perception though.
As long as any money from Fab being sold is reinvested wisely it could be a good move.
But it not good money at all. I don’t see why people don’t understand this. Barcelona are trying to bully their way into getting Cesc. They are not offering realistic fees for him. My belief is that we will keep him this year and see what happens. Next year Ramsey will be more in line to replace him should he want to go. There is no reason why we should not give it one more shot with Fabregas in the team.
All we know is what comes out in the press .We have no idea what Arsenal want or how much Barca will offer if they actually really want him.
Is it possible to watch a competition with out the refs dictating the results? Just saw a ref give a congo player a yellow card for a tackle and then while the injured player was getting treating, 3 minutes later he calls the same player over and gives him a red card. Football is frustrating to watch some times.
It seems like there is a malaise concerning officiating in all sports worldwide right now to be honest:(
@ Shane.
I always enjoy the banter with you because you are insightful. Yes Barca are trying to bully their way to get Cesc. Truth is they are winning that war only because CESC keeps that door open to them. They also know that either way they would have him because at the end of this contract he would walk so they would keep offering less as he draws closer to the end of his contract… Truth is we do the same thing only with smaller clubs. Just like we are about to do with Gerv. From the standpoint that he would be a much better midfielder soon… i do believe absolutely without a shadow of doubt he already is. I feel however that a lot of factors would mitigate Cesc to give the team his full attention and right now he does not feel we have a strong enough team. I mean the “parting gifts” says it all. How can you then turn around and command the team to give 100%? its rather counter productive. I love cesc. I want him to retire as an arsenal player. However we wish we could be millionaires and i know im not. Cesc wants Barca….. in my opinion more than he wants Arsenal. Certainly if we are judging on recent years, the grass is definitely greener on the other side.
Cheers mate. First off, we do no where near what Barcelona do. Have you seen Wenger all over tv talking about Gervinho is destined to be with us and all that BS? Secondly Barcelona are not going to wait 3 years to get Cesc. We would get the same low fee next year as we would this year no matter what so what is the point in selling him at a low price? Watch what Modric goes for. You seriously want us to sell Fabregas who I must state again has over 90 assists for us already for the same price as Modric? Lets face it, it is clear that Wenger has recognized that this is the last year to try and get it right with Fabregas in the team. He has come out upfront and said he is going to make signings to try and push us over the top. Remember, Fabregas is going to be turning 25 and hitting his prime years starting next year. Then he will go into the Euros where I believe will be his break out tournament for spain so his value will sky rocket. Also as I said, Ramsey will be back to his best and ready to step in should Fabregas want to go. Xavi will be 32 at this point and Barcelona will be far more desperate to find a successor so we will have the upper hand. All things point to giving this 1 more shot with Fabregas and then seeing where things are at the end of this year. Last thing is I feel this claim of him not giving his best for us is over blown. Injuries affected his play. When he was fully fit, I saw him giving his all and celebrating after our goals. Remember the first leg verse Barcelona when he was fit. He gave it his all and was as excited as anyone.
One last thing about it being greener on the other side. Xavi could have left Barcelona when they were crap but he stuck it out. Iniesta could have left when he was back up to Deco but he stuck it out. Players need to show more drive and determination rather then always looking to bail.
By the way, you guys don’t think Wenger was ready for this. It is not everyday you sign someone to an 8 year contract.
Shane I agreed most of your points, however after observing Ramsey play thus far and his technical skill I really doubt with his potential he can even reach Fabregas assist as well as pin point needle through pass. I mean who can buy a like for like player? No one player traits are the same really. With the EPP coming into play probably after 2012 season, I really hope Arsene and his scouts can cast their nets to reach the English talents too. Frankly it is easy said that done but I really hope Arsene nail this one down as the bulk of players should really come from our academy talents and the remainding few buy from the open markets.
I suspect Wenger is looking at the youth player Toral brought from Bracelona in the Fabreags mold in the long run. Anyway who can tell or read Wenger minds and that the English media make a fuss out of it, and short sighted Arsenal fans bashing Arsene and his players in the blog sphere.
Mate, Ramsey is just back from a severe injury. Did you watch him before his injury? He could pick a pass with the best of them. He will be back to his best this season. Of course there is not react replacements for players but there are players that fit similar roles. Another player that could have been an option was Nuri Sahin but obviously he already joined Madrid.
Yay Ramsey needs a solid pre-season warm matches to regain his shapness, but he is still far away from Fabregas. He can be a world class central midfielder but he needs at least another 2-3 years of top level competition.
We cannot sit on the laudel but continue to press on our youth academy recruitment, and get more top class coaches in the academic. We must teach the youth all aspects of the game and then we could reign in the helm of Champions League competition for many years. EPL I’m not so interested cause you can see most referees never seems to protect the harsh tackles and unfair judgement of matches which sadly will continue to go on and on.
@ shane…. those are very good points… duly noted. I do agree with you.